The Bandits are in the process of planting our first series for kids in the Hudson Valley of NY. Since 7/11ths of our group are under 13, we consider it appropo (sp?)

It's a children's book series with 10 had carved stamps. My back has been out, so I've been busy carving! Gotta get that boxing fix satisfied somehow. We hope to plant them sometime in the next couple of weeks.

Talking Turtle


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Since boxes for kids seems to be the theme of the day, here are a few
more thoughts about what I think would be a truly kid-friendly box:

Make the clues with extra-large text. Have you ever noticed
children's books? The text tends to be larger the younger the kid is
that the book is meant for.

On a similar vein, the younger the kids the boxes are meant for, the
more pictures should be included in it. Especially color ones. Just
a visit to your nearest bookstore shows it's industry standard.
Younger kids that can't read as well like more pictures and USE the
pictures to figure out what the text says. (Heck, I do that while
trying to read kid's books in Spanish. It's an eye-opener--I
essentially read Spanish texts like kids here do with English texts.)

And the younger the kid a letterbox is designed for, the easier the
words and sentence structures should be.

And--this is important--tell people right at the beginning of the
clue what age level the boxes are designed for. A clue for a five
year old will be very different than a clue for a ten year old. Both
can look for it, but set their expectations appropriately right from
the very beginning.

It wouldn't be a bad idea at all to visit the children's section of a
bookstore and read a few books (or at least parts of them) for the
age level you have in mind to see exactly how complex the words and
text should be.

That about does for a kid-friendly clue that I can think of off the
top of my head.

For a kid-friendly location, an easy walk at a park with a playground
would be ideal. The younger the kid, the shorter the walk should
be. And make sure it's hidden low enough to the ground where the
kids can reach it.

As extras in the boxes, you could put in a few crayons and encourage
them to draw a picture or something in the logbook. =) Nothing
screams "kid-friendly" than a few strategically placed crayons. Kids
would LOVE a first-finder's certificate, I would think. (Well
decorated with lots of colorful kid-themed stickers and such.) Heck,
even putting a quarter in the letterbox for the first finder. Man,
nothing made me happier when I was ten years old than to find a
quarter on the ground or in a payphone's coin return slot. Score!
If it's a box you check often, you could leave a quarter in it every
time you check up on the box.

Hmm.... That's all I can think of for now. The difference between a
kid-friendly box and a kid-accessible box is if you plant a box with
the kid in mind (kid-friendly) or with the parent in mind (kid-
accessible).

If anyone hides a truly kid-friendly box anywhere near where I can
get to, I'd LOVE to check it out and see how you've done! (After
all, I am a big kid at heart. *smile*)

-- Ryan

In a message dated 11/29/03 10:03:52 PM, RiskyNil@pocketmail.com writes:


> Nothing
> screams "kid-friendly" than a few strategically placed crayons.
>

Colored pencils might be better. Crayons might melt in the summertime. I
know they would here in Florida.

DebBee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

As a mom of a 9 and a 2, the couple of boxes I placed are kid-
friendly in my mind, and when searching I actively seek ones that
work for the kids. To me, this means a couple of things that might
not be what you would expect:

- As you said, the hike is shorter, or more level, and/or includes
good resting places, where snacks can be consumed. Trails lined with
blackberries are excellent.

- A park with a playground is ideal. At the end of the trek, so the
kid is motivated to keep moving (It's easier to motivate a tired one
if they can see swings a bit off).

- I don't dummy down directions. I have found that children rise to
the occasion. If there's something the kid (or I!) can't read or
understand, it's a chance to learn together. The non-chalant usage of
types of trees/bushes in most clues has sent us to the plant/wildlife
guide many times (it's in the backpack).

- One nice touch I have seen on a couple boxes is steps/paces notated
in adult and kid-sized steps: "15 kid steps/8 adult."

- Now I'm kinda funny here, but our household is media-free, which
means that the kids don't know any Disney/Pokemon/Toon-du-jour
characters. If a box advertised itself as featuring them, I would be
inclined to stay away. That's one of the reason LBing appeals to us,
it gets us away from pop culture!

- I could go off on a tangent about how I believe that rewards-based
parenting ("good job!") can really set kids up to become praise
junkies. I like that fact that the reward is the hike itself
(especially when you can't find the box), and the thrill is seeing
what somebody else carved for you to enjoy--doubly appreciated since
you know yourself (and my kids *do*) how much effort goes into it!

So, I guess my 'ideal' kid's box isn't going to be that much
different in their makeup or content (haven't seen blantantly adult
content in a LB yet--might be a niche!), rather only limited by
physical ability (at which point dvn2ckr will chime in about her
toddler's amazing prowess on the trails). Note that I always multiply
her estimates of time by a factor of three... ;-)

The Kenmore Rhodies box was just about right, the Savannah series was
terrific.

Celt et al.
Redmond, WA

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen"
wrote:
> Since boxes for kids seems to be the theme of the day, here are a
few
> more thoughts about what I think would be a truly kid-friendly box:
>
> Make the clues with extra-large text. Have you ever noticed
> children's books? The text tends to be larger the younger the kid
is
> that the book is meant for.
>
> On a similar vein, the younger the kids the boxes are meant for,
the
> more pictures should be included in it. Especially color ones.
Just
> a visit to your nearest bookstore shows it's industry standard.
> Younger kids that can't read as well like more pictures and USE the
> pictures to figure out what the text says. (Heck, I do that while
> trying to read kid's books in Spanish. It's an eye-opener--I
> essentially read Spanish texts like kids here do with English
texts.)
>
> And the younger the kid a letterbox is designed for, the easier the
> words and sentence structures should be.
>
> And--this is important--tell people right at the beginning of the
> clue what age level the boxes are designed for. A clue for a five
> year old will be very different than a clue for a ten year old.
Both
> can look for it, but set their expectations appropriately right
from
> the very beginning.
>
> It wouldn't be a bad idea at all to visit the children's section of
a
> bookstore and read a few books (or at least parts of them) for the
> age level you have in mind to see exactly how complex the words and
> text should be.
>
> That about does for a kid-friendly clue that I can think of off the
> top of my head.
>
> For a kid-friendly location, an easy walk at a park with a
playground
> would be ideal. The younger the kid, the shorter the walk should
> be. And make sure it's hidden low enough to the ground where the
> kids can reach it.
>
> As extras in the boxes, you could put in a few crayons and
encourage
> them to draw a picture or something in the logbook. =) Nothing
> screams "kid-friendly" than a few strategically placed crayons.
Kids
> would LOVE a first-finder's certificate, I would think. (Well
> decorated with lots of colorful kid-themed stickers and such.)
Heck,
> even putting a quarter in the letterbox for the first finder. Man,
> nothing made me happier when I was ten years old than to find a
> quarter on the ground or in a payphone's coin return slot. Score!
> If it's a box you check often, you could leave a quarter in it
every
> time you check up on the box.
>
> Hmm.... That's all I can think of for now. The difference between
a
> kid-friendly box and a kid-accessible box is if you plant a box
with
> the kid in mind (kid-friendly) or with the parent in mind (kid-
> accessible).
>
> If anyone hides a truly kid-friendly box anywhere near where I can
> get to, I'd LOVE to check it out and see how you've done! (After
> all, I am a big kid at heart. *smile*)
>
> -- Ryan

In a message dated 11/29/2003 11:10:35 PM Eastern Standard Time,
cwalsh@nwlink.com writes:
So, I guess my 'ideal' kid's box isn't going to be that much
different in their makeup or content (haven't seen blantantly adult
content in a LB yet--might be a niche!), rather only limited by
physical ability (at which point dvn2ckr will chime in about her
toddler's amazing prowess on the trails). Note that I always multiply
her estimates of time by a factor of three... ;-)
I have a 2 year old, 4 year old and 7 year old. The boxes that we have
placed (sadly need to be replaced and no time yet!) were all kid friendly. In VA,
we did a Mother Goose box and a series inspired by a book of children's poems
by Jack Prelutsky. Another family here in VA, Bema, has placed boxes done by
thier kids with excellent kid clues. My kids love the thrill of hunting and
figuring out the clues and they don't mind if it's hard and requires searching.

My older son's boxes (the ones he's made) have so far all been Pokemon, but I
prefer to avoid the crass commercialism and for myself I like kid's boxes
based on books. We did part of the Dead Author (INCREDIBLE! I can't wait to
finish it!) series here in NoVA and it inspired my son to want to read Louisa May
Alcott and Mark Twain. Another family in this area (Happy Homeschoolers) did
a series with botanical clues in latin (Quercas Alba = White Oak) and we
liked that a lot and for home schooling it fell into a great science lesson at the
nature center after the hunt. I'd like to do some kid boxes with these sorts
of science clues (plant name clues, animals, habitat) as they were really fun.
It's also good to know how long the hike is (our first was like three miles
and a hill, hard on stroller and short legs!) and what the terrain is -
stroller friendly? I have run up steep hills with a stroller on my shoulders and a
baby in it but, please, no more....


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Trails lined with blackberries are excellent.

That's a great idea! I'd also include in the clues when their
fruiting season is so others can take maximum advantage of it if they
choose.

> I don't dummy down directions. I have found that children rise to
> the occasion.

That's good up to a point, but if you throw a Mitchner book in the
lap of a three year old, they're probably not going to rise to the
challenge. I didn't mean to suggest that the clues should be easy to
read, but rather written for the appropriate age level. As far as
educational purposes go, you want to challenge them, but not make it
so difficult they'll throw up their hands in frustration and want to
quit. I'd consider a book for an eight-year-old good if it was
challenging for them, but not so much so that they're not having fun
anymore. If it was so easy for them to read that they didn't learn a
single new word, then the age level for the book should have been
lower--younger kids might find the exact same clue a wonderful
challenge. It's all an estimate anyhow, though, since such details
are impossible to measure precisely and what one person thinks is
perfect for an 8 year old another might say is better suited for a 10
year old. Even the differences among children--it might be perfect
for both of them.

I cringe at the term "dummy down", though, since it tends to suggest
making the clues TOO easy. But even a one year old would think "See
Spot run" is a pretty tough sentence to get a handle on. Your child
(children?) may not have had any troubles rising to the challenge of
reading the typical clue, but children younger than your own might.

I think the ideal clue--from a kid's perspective--is one they can
figure out completely on their own without their parent's help.
Teach them to learn on their own, since their parent's won't always
be there to help in the future.

> If there's something the kid (or I!) can't read or
> understand, it's a chance to learn together.

I'm all for making the reading challenging for educational purposes--
I *LOVE* that idea, in fact, although in the true spirit for creating
letterboxes for children, that should not be a consideration. That's
pandoring to the parents--if the primary audience is the children,
designing a box should be done with them in mind first. Parental
educational concerns can be addressed--as long as it doesn't make the
box less appealing for kids.

It's important to distinguish exactly who the intended audience is:
The child or the parent of the child. A box designed specifically
with parents in mind definitely should be educational. A box
designed specifically for children need not be educational. In this
particular case, I think both can be accomodated equally well, but
that's not always the case.

> The non-chalant usage of types of trees/bushes in most clues has
> sent us to the plant/wildlife guide many times

Again, this is from the parent's point of view. Most kids don't
carry around plant and wildlife guides, so the clue needs to BE the
guide. Most five year olds can't log into the Internet and do a
websearch for a picture of a maple leaf, nor can they run off to the
nearest bookstore to buy a plant guide. If the clue says to look
behind the maple tree, the clue should tell the child what the maple
tree looks like. For younger children, pictures of the leaf shape or
bark might be appropriate. For older children, a text description of
a maple tree might be fine. For adults--let them go to the bookstore
and buy a plant/wildlife guide. =)

> One nice touch I have seen on a couple boxes is steps/paces notated
> in adult and kid-sized steps: "15 kid steps/8 adult."

I'm probably taking this "for the kids" to the extreme, but a good
clue designed SPECIFICALLY for a child should contain only kid sized
steps. Including adult sized paces is pandering to the parent once
again.

> Now I'm kinda funny here, but our household is media-free, which
> means that the kids don't know any Disney/Pokemon/Toon-du-jour
> characters.

Even if the household is media-free, they'll still pick up
information about Disney/Pokemon/etc characters from school friends.
I even saw a billboard the other day for the Finding Nemo DVD. You
can sterilize your household of advertisements, but eventually your
kids will pick up on it. Sad though it may be, you can't protect
them from it forever. It's a worthy cause, but one that will
eventually fail.

But I digress on that point, because it's not really about
letterboxing. A better point is that no letterbox can be absolutely
perfect for everyone, and this would be a good example. Most
children would enjoy finding the traditional kid-themed characters as
stamps, but there will always be exceptions. Ultimately, you can't
make everyone happy, but the narrower your intented audience, the
more likely you can make a letterbox that would be perfect for them.

Imagine hiding a letterbox designed for one, specific kid in mind.
The theme had better contain their favorite characters or the box
will have failed that kid. Designing the box for one specific kid,
you'll get a 100% success rate. Kids of the same age--there might be
a 90% success rate. Some of them might not have heard of the
characters involved or even don't like the characters! There's bound
to be a "failure" or two as the audience widens.

All kids--even outside of the designated age--there might be an 80%
success rate. And the success rate for any individual letterboxer of
any age might run at 60%. The wider the audience, the less impressed
they'll be with the letterbox.

> So, I guess my 'ideal' kid's box isn't going to be that much
> different in their makeup or content

What you described was a GREAT letterbox for parents. Which is a
perfectly fine idea! Please don't misunderstand me. I was just more
focused on what a great letterbox for a child would be--not for the
parents of a child. Both are worthy boxes to create, and if there
are ways to overlap the two where making a certain change would
enhance both of their pleasure, that would be great. Or even if it
enhanced one person's pleasure but didn't affect the other's
enjoyment. But if a change would make a parent enjoy the box more
while the child would enjoy it less (or vice-versa), you've got to
decide: Who is the box REALLY for? The parent or the child? And
make a decision based on that.

> haven't seen blantantly adult content in a LB yet--might be a
> niche!

I've actually considered making some blantantly adult only
letterboxes--and I'm not talking about putting them at the end of
long hikes that only adults could reach either! (Although that would
certainly be a good place for such adult-themed boxes just to insure
kids don't find them.)

And I even have one stamp I've carved that's borderline--not quite
bad enough to be considered "adult only", but definitely not targeted
towards kids either. But that should be a different thread. I don't
really have any strong opinions about the topic either way. It's an
interesting one, though, that I'd love to hear input on from others.
=)

> Colored pencils might be better. Crayons might melt in the
> summertime.

Excellent point. Needless to say, that didn't occur to me. Sounds
like you've had a bad experience with crayons before. =) I stand
corrected. Yes, even us Great Ones can make mistakes. ;o)

-- Ryan

> Sounds like you've had a bad experience with crayons before. =)
>
I'm in Florida. We have to consider EVERYTHING melting, including the
people!

I like the way you consider (and therefore lead us to consider) that
letterboxes can be targeted toward different audiences.

My own favorites are what I'd call "family" letterboxes. The fact is, the
kids aren't going to be out there by themselves, so if they run into a clue for
which the parent has to get out the field guide and show them how to look up
a plant or animal, that's a good thing. We found one at a nature center this
weekend where the stamp was carved on a theme that tied in with what we saw
at the nature center, and I think we all learned a bit about the subject--not
to mention my son was pretty excited about seeing the critters!

I've noticed in the logbooks in my boxes, there are a lot of moms with kids
boxing around here, so very often I'll try to make my boxes an "adventure" for
them. I'm thinking of planting one they can ride the train to, I'm putting
one in a park where there's an army tank on display, that a lot of people
probably wouldn't know about if the box didn't lead them to the park. So my clues
aren't geared particularly to the kids doing the actual searching, but the
boxes are definitely planted with kids in mind.

DebBee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Thanks for all the great ideas everyone. I like the idea of 'kid sized' steps/paces, but I don't have kids. I'd have to borrow one to write the paces :-) Of course, just as with adults, kids are different heights and have different strides, so I think it would be hard to do this. At what age do you think most kids would get the concept of a pace key (Giving a defined area/distance and saying how many steps/paces it is, so that the finders steps/paces can be adjusted to accommodate)?
For short distances, I could buy a pair of kids shoes and do heel to toe measurements :-) Could you just picture someone seeing me on the trail while I was doing the step count! Lol "I didn't escape, I have a day pass"

Scoutdogs

"We got rid of the kids, the pets were allergic"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> My own favorites are what I'd call "family" letterboxes. The fact
> is, the kids aren't going to be out there by themselves

That's a perfectly fine audience for a letterbox as well. Young kids
are particularly unique in the sense that they're probably the only
letterboxers that you can almost bet on not being alone, and trying
to accomodate the adult as well is definitely a good idea.

Ultimately, though, if you have an idea for developing a letterbox
with two different types of people in mind (in this case, a child and
the parents of a child), and you have this great idea that kids would
absolutely LOVE (i.e. Let's put lots of glitter in the box!) that
parents might not (ugh, the mess!), then you'll need to narrow your
focus and decide--who comes first? A clue that lists only adult
sized steps but neglects child sized steps is geared more towards the
parent rather than the child, and the child could get more frustrated
with the clue than is otherwise necessary. (A clue that lists both
kid sized and adult sized paces is obviously targeted to a "family",
rather than either of them. Or, another interesting idea--create one
set of clues for kids to follow and another set of clues for the
adults to use.)

I love the art of creating the perfect letterbox. =) It's so easy
to throw out a box without putting much effort or thought into it,
but wow--the amazing things people can do with even a bit of
consideration for their intended audience.

> I'm thinking of planting one they can ride the train to, I'm
> putting one in a park where there's an army tank on display

Sounds like some more good ideas! =)

> Of course, just as with adults, kids are different heights and have
> different strides

Steps and paces tend to be estimates anyhow since even adults have
different strides. Ideally you'd find a kid of the age range the box
is designed for and have him or her measure out the paces for you,
but without a kid--just take a guess. It's still likely to be more
accurate for a kid than the actual steps you took.

Perhaps some boxers on this board that have kids could help out by
sharing how many kid sized paces tend to make up an adult's sized
pace. Off the cuff, I'd guess 2 kid steps is approximately 1 adult
step, but I'm just guessing. Experienced letterboxers who have kids
are very likely to know, though! =)

-- Ryan

Kudos so far for all the great ideas for kid oriented boxes.

When you are writing your clues for these boxes, why not tell kids to
make sure they bring along a shoe lace, soft rope, string or cord of
a predetermined length, say 2." I wouldn't recommend something like a
stick, though that would be age appropriate I expect. I think kids
would love to pull out their piece of shoe lace/rope/string/cord or
stick so they could measure out the clue writer's distance from a
particular landmark to the box. If you check your boxes often, you
could also furnish and replenish pieces of a certain length of string
in one box that helps kids find the next one(s). This way, the length
of a pace or step becomes a non-issue and even little kids who can't
read yet get to participate and follow their string to find the box.

You could also print off drawings or photos that are related to the
letterbox and use the first few pages of the log book for a scrapbook
of these items that kids could use to identify certain trees or
plants to make the box both fun and educational.

Alafair

--- In letterbox-usa@yahoogroups.com, "rscarpen"
wrote:
> > My own favorites are what I'd call "family" letterboxes. The
fact
> > is, the kids aren't going to be out there by themselves
>
> That's a perfectly fine audience for a letterbox as well. Young
kids
> are particularly unique in the sense that they're probably the only
> letterboxers that you can almost bet on not being alone, and trying
> to accomodate the adult as well is definitely a good idea.
>
> Ultimately, though, if you have an idea for developing a letterbox
> with two different types of people in mind (in this case, a child
and
> the parents of a child), and you have this great idea that kids
would
> absolutely LOVE (i.e. Let's put lots of glitter in the box!) that
> parents might not (ugh, the mess!), then you'll need to narrow your
> focus and decide--who comes first? A clue that lists only adult
> sized steps but neglects child sized steps is geared more towards
the
> parent rather than the child, and the child could get more
frustrated
> with the clue than is otherwise necessary. (A clue that lists both
> kid sized and adult sized paces is obviously targeted to
a "family",
> rather than either of them. Or, another interesting idea--create
one
> set of clues for kids to follow and another set of clues for the
> adults to use.)
>
> I love the art of creating the perfect letterbox. =) It's so easy
> to throw out a box without putting much effort or thought into it,
> but wow--the amazing things people can do with even a bit of
> consideration for their intended audience.
>
> > I'm thinking of planting one they can ride the train to, I'm
> > putting one in a park where there's an army tank on display
>
> Sounds like some more good ideas! =)
>
> > Of course, just as with adults, kids are different heights and
have
> > different strides
>
> Steps and paces tend to be estimates anyhow since even adults have
> different strides. Ideally you'd find a kid of the age range the
box
> is designed for and have him or her measure out the paces for you,
> but without a kid--just take a guess. It's still likely to be more
> accurate for a kid than the actual steps you took.
>
> Perhaps some boxers on this board that have kids could help out by
> sharing how many kid sized paces tend to make up an adult's sized
> pace. Off the cuff, I'd guess 2 kid steps is approximately 1 adult
> step, but I'm just guessing. Experienced letterboxers who have
kids
> are very likely to know, though! =)
>
> -- Ryan

> how many kid sized paces tend to make up an adult's sized pace
>
We just did orienteering with my son's Cub Scout den. They're 10- and
11-year olds, and their paces worked out to right about 2 feet per step (meaning
one footfall).

When I planted letterboxes for them at our campout, I just shortened my
strides, keeping that measurement in mind and "guesstimated." It seemed to work
out, since everyone got the boxes with no problem. Smaller kids, of course,
would mean smaller strides. (Duh! )

DebBee


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> I think kids would love to pull out their piece of shoe
> lace/rope/string/cord or stick so they could measure out the clue
> writer's distance from a particular landmark to the box.

Ooooh.... forget the kids! I'd love to nab a box like that! ;o)

-- Ryan

At what age do you think most kids would get the concept of a pace
key (Giving a defined area/distance and saying how many steps/paces
it is, so that the finders steps/paces can be adjusted to
accommodate)?

I've done 6 workshops for the local kindegartens and the 5 year olds
figured out paces and steps no problem. There were variables in the
babysteps to giant steps range but I taught them to understand that
and look a little ahead and a little behind where they stop for the
logical neext clue. ie: "take ten paces to the small trail on the
right" well if they fall short they will notice the trail a couple
steps ahead. It has been working pretty well with them. I also
taught some groups of tiger cubs age 7 compass reading and they had
the basics in a jiffy going all over the school on compass readings
to find boxes hidden indoors for theoccasion. No lost kids after dark
that way! Anyway kids really can grasp it uquite well the steps and
mechanics won't be as much problem as inferred clues and language
above their level. So keep that in mind and have the kids enjoy. Most
of my boxes are done with kids in mind some in story clues, some
straight forward and some more elusive but I think they must almost
always come up with the box. There are lots of happy stamps in the
box journals and lots of kids in that. Good luck let me know if I
can be of any assistance Leader of the Pack
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

Well, Daniel (not quite five) certainly can get that idea--

"Count how many steps it takes to get across the bridge. Now walk "three
"bridges" and look for the big log" would make sense to him.

I am excited to see you contemplating a nursery rhyme series. For us, the
key is easy hikes with a couple of boxes and something neat to visit
(playground, building, nature center, fountain, you name it--we are easy!)
Extra rewards aren't really necc. cuz the kids love the stamps.

I wuuld think a comibnation of paces, compass readings, and landmarks owudl
be good--otherwise, your clues are pretty much kid friendly. After all, my
gang won't be out alone for several years~


Mama Stork
aka Pam in Cinci
F45

-----Original Message-----
From: Dog Scouts Troop [mailto:DogScouts@hotmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2003 11:55 AM
To: letterboxing
Subject: [LbNA] Boxes for kids


Thanks for all the great ideas everyone. I like the idea of 'kid sized'
steps/paces, but I don't have kids. I'd have to borrow one to write the
paces :-) Of course, just as with adults, kids are different heights and
have different strides, so I think it would be hard to do this. At what age
do you think most kids would get the concept of a pace key (Giving a defined
area/distance and saying how many steps/paces it is, so that the finders
steps/paces can be adjusted to accommodate)?
For short distances, I could buy a pair of kids shoes and do heel to toe
measurements :-) Could you just picture someone seeing me on the trail while
I was doing the step count! Lol "I didn't escape, I have a day pass"

Scoutdogs

"We got rid of the kids, the pets were allergic"




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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> From: "scoutdogs107"
> Subject: Boxes for kids
>
> >>Why don't a few people create letterboxes explicitly with children
> in mind?<<
>
> You have given me some good ideas, thanks. I have been toying with
> the idea of creating a series for kids based on nursury rhymes. I
> don't have kids, but there are several boxers in my area that do.
> Many of the ideas you mentioned hadn't occured to me, but I'll likely
> use them for this series, possibly planted next spring.
> Scoutdogs

I didn't see Ryan's original post for some reason (maybe my kids were
bugging me at the moment!) Anyhow, I recently planted several boxes in my
area with the "playground set" in mind ("Mom, She's Bugging Me" nos. 1-4).
My motivation was the fact that I do box with my kids most of the time, and
sometimes they are not into the whole "boxing" activity, but can be molified
with some playground time. So, the boxes are planted in little neighborhood
parks within a few hundred yards of the playground area. The clues are
little mind-teasers for the parents, though--thinking back to my days of
seemingly endless, mind-numbing swing pushing. I thought that parents might,
if they're not able to get out on an envigorating scenic hike, at least
appreciate a little mental stimulation. Older sibs should be able to figure
out the clues, though (9 yo or so--about the age they start enjoying
children's mystery fiction). I did make sure the stamps were mounted, so
they'd be easier for smaller hands to handle, and I may revisit and put some
crayons in so the littler ones can sign the log book. Perhaps this falls
under the category of "for parents, with kids as an afterthought." I've got
more stamps that go with the theme that I haven't planted yet, so I may do
some more specifically for kids to find (possibly pairing them with the
parent boxes?)

If you don't have kids of your own, you might try "field testing" a
placement/set of clues with someone else's. And it might be a good idea to
place the box somewhere where you can do more-than-usual frequency of
maintenance, to cut down on the frustration of missing boxes, wet log books,
etc.

From: "rscarpen"
Subject: Re: Boxes for kids

>> My own favorites are what I'd call "family" letterboxes. The fact
>> is, the kids aren't going to be out there by themselves

>That's a perfectly fine audience for a letterbox as well. Young kids
>are particularly unique in the sense that they're probably the only
>letterboxers that you can almost bet on not being alone, and trying
>to accomodate the adult as well is definitely a good idea.
>
>Ultimately, though, if you have an idea for developing a letterbox
>with two different types of people in mind (in this case, a child and
>the parents of a child), and you have this great idea that kids would
>absolutely LOVE (i.e. Let's put lots of glitter in the box!) that
>parents might not (ugh, the mess!), then you'll need to narrow your
>focus and decide--who comes first? A clue that lists only adult
>sized steps but neglects child sized steps is geared more towards the
>parent rather than the child, and the child could get more frustrated
>with the clue than is otherwise necessary. (A clue that lists both
>kid sized and adult sized paces is obviously targeted to a "family",
>rather than either of them. Or, another interesting idea--create one
>set of clues for kids to follow and another set of clues for the
>adults to use.)
>
>I love the art of creating the perfect letterbox. =) It's so easy
>to throw out a box without putting much effort or thought into it,
>but wow--the amazing things people can do with even a bit of
>consideration for their intended audience.

With all due respect, Ryan--I think your idea of "kid friendly" is focusing
on "can be solved by kid alone with minimal/no parental involvement," and
that focus may be somewhat misplaced. Younger kids, especially, get more
enjoyment out of doing things WITH their parents, rather than by themselves.
So, for a younger kid (I'd say up to about 6 or 7 years), a "family
friendly" box that involved more interaction between parent and child would,
in fact, be more "kid friendly" than a box that they did completely on their
own.

In that regard, we should perhaps take a cue from childen's rule-based
games, and how they play them. Those that are intended for younger children
are designed so the kid can see where they are supposed to go, how far,
etc., but they still need a parent to help explain the rules, etc. A 4-yo
can play Candyland--with an adult's help. I think it'd be exceptional 4-yos
that could play Candyland against each other. And no, I don't want to hear
from anyone whose 5-yo plays chess with her genuis baby brother.

Or, you might take a a cue from orienteering. Now, theoretically, some
orienteering meets offer a "string" course, which is a very short, easy
course designed for kids, where they literally follow along a string to the
controls. Except, none of the orienteering meets in my area seem to offer
the string courses anymore, due to lack of popularity, I suppose. Most kids,
it seems, would rather do the beginner's "white" course with a parent. By
the time they are *interested* in doing things on their own, they're usually
able to handle the white course solo.

On the subject of paces: of course, it varies depending on age, size of
child (my 1st grade daughter weighs 40 lbs, while her 1st grade cousin is
more than twice that), tired factor, etc. In my experience, kids tend to
step big when they know they're counting steps. And they also have bigger
strides, in general, than you might imagine (definitely not 2:1, unless
you're talking very small child, like a 3-yo, maybe). My son is a short 8-yo
and yet his strides are probably only about 20% shorter than mine. The other
thing to keep in mind is not only calibrating the paces is how many a kid
can count at what age. Some kids can count to 100 in kindergarten, but
others that age are still dicey after 10.

On a different note (for those of you thinking about doing kid-friendly
boxes): although there's nothing wrong with series, per se, and they can
always be broken down into smaller parts, I find that my kids (5 and 8,
fwiw) start to roll their eyes after the 2nd box.

And on a final note: I'd ordered two 12x18 sheets of 1/4 rubber from Dick
Blick, thinking it'd be similar to the PZCut rubber, only bigger. I
discovered it was too rubbery for fine detail, so I gave one to each of my
kids. They are both quite handy with the speedball #1 gouge, and they were
both ECSTATIC. Of course, now I need more ink for my stamp pads (and more
PZCut for my stamps).

La Chola

As I'm sure you recall, we discussed boxing with
scouts a couple months ago, when some of us were
thinking about trying it, and then actually did it.

We took our six boys out boxing, all of them 2nd
grade/7-8 years old. I tried to expose them to every
type of basic navigation when I wrote the clues: we
used very basic compass readings, visual sighting, and
paces.

The compass readings were a little tough for them, but
they managed them all the same. The visual clues were
much easier for them than they were for the adults.
My husband was adamant about excluding a particular
clue which called for them to spot the "stairs to the
stairs". He absolutely couldn't visualize it, but
they quickly got it - it was a short set of steps
leading to playground equipment, and among the
playground equipment was a short ladder to a platform.
I DID make it a point to remind him that he felt that
clue was too hard!

Paces - they did just fine with them. Surprisingly,
they really got the idea of a pace key - pacing a
known distance to see how their paces compared, so
they could do the next leg of pacing to an unknown
location and make minor adjustments. Of course, they
all had adults with them to help them out a bit, but
any kid out letterboxing should have an adult with
them also (gosh, I hope that doesn't generate
controversy - LOL).

When my daughter and I calculated paces for the clues,
we walked heel to toe, visually adding about 6 inches
between heel and toe. I realize that isn't very
exact, but it did work and no one came and asked for
help with pace-related clues. We stationed ourselves
in the general center of the field of boxes so they
could return to us and ask questions if needed. If I
were planting boxes for strangers and I knew I wasn't
going to be on hand to help them out, I would borrow a
real kid and work on measuring a pace. You could work
with the kid, walking with him or her while someone
else counts his pace and you count your own, then
divide the kids' paces by your own to arrive at a pace
factor. You should then be able to pace off anywhere
and multiply your own pace count by your factor to
figure out how many paces you should note in your
clues. You should probably also note in your clue the
age and height of the test kid. OR, as an
alternative, you could just borrow the kid every time
you wanted to go plant boxes and let them give you
real paces. Of course, you realize that kids who
provide specialized services such as this should be
compensated for their expertise - candy usually works
fine.

My .02,
Lucy


--- Dog Scouts Troop wrote:
> Thanks for all the great ideas everyone. I like the
> idea of 'kid sized' steps/paces, but I don't have
> kids. I'd have to borrow one to write the paces :-)
> Of course, just as with adults, kids are different
> heights and have different strides, so I think it
> would be hard to do this. At what age do you think
> most kids would get the concept of a pace key
> (Giving a defined area/distance and saying how many
> steps/paces it is, so that the finders steps/paces
> can be adjusted to accommodate)?


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> Or, another interesting idea--create one
> set of clues for kids to follow and another set of
> clues for the adults to use.)
>

****This is a great idea! I learned, when we set out
boxes for our scouts, that kids have a distinctly
different way of looking at things and have quite a
different perspective as well. One clue we used was
to "find the stump the height of a Wolf Cub". Well,
our boys were Wolf Cubs, so they had to look for a
stump as tall as themselves. The adults tended to
overlook the stump, but the kids felt like they were
eye-to-eye with it and didn't understand how the
adults missed it (actually, neither do I, but that's
another question for another day I guess).

Giving two sets of clues for each audience might
really make the letterboxing experience more 3-D!

Lucy

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> - I don't dummy down directions. I have found that
> children rise to the occasion. If there's something
> the kid (or I!) can't read or understand, it's a >
chance to learn together. The non-chalant usage > of
types of trees/bushes in most clues has sent us > to
the plant/wildlife guide many times (it's in the >
backpack).

*****Here! Here! Don't dumb it down - PLEASE! Kids
aren't idiots, they are simply as yet uninformed. I
take mine out into the woods so they have to learn to
use their heads and their hearts. And having to learn
something about nature in order to solve the problem
is a great advantage to me and awesome fun for them -
they don't mind it nearly as much when I say "Hmmm...a
chokeberry bush. I wonder what that looks like -
maybe we can find it in our field guide." I promise
you, by the time I finish saying it, my 7 year old is
already digging the book out of my backpack!

> - Now I'm kinda funny here, but our household is
> media-free, which means that the kids don't know any
> Disney/Pokemon/Toon-du-jour characters. If a box >
advertised itself as featuring them, I would be
> inclined to stay away. That's one of the reason
> LBing appeals to us, it gets us away from pop >
culture!

****My home isn't media free (oh how I wish it were!),
but I agree with you - I'd stay away from boxes geared
around catchy characters you find on lunch boxes and
backpacks. Too much of them in the real world.

Lucy


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Barefoot Lucy said: "You could work with the kid, walking with him or her while someone else counts his pace and you count your own, then divide the kids' paces by your own to arrive at a pace factor. You should then be able to pace off anywhere and multiply your own pace count by your factor to figure out how many paces you should note in your clues. You should probably also note in your clue the age and height of the test kid. "

Sorry, sounds way too much like MATH - EEWWW! Lol Thank-you to whom ever suggested the string idea, I think that's the way to go :-) I've been saving all the suggestions, so that when it comes time to create the box & write clues, I'll remember the great ideas.

Scoutdogs

"Mom, somebody called from somewhere and said to call back"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> Kathryn Litherland

Listen up, everyone! I'm deferring all future kid box questions and
comments to La Chola, because she seems to know more about them than
I do. I'm just throwing out ideas, but I'd NEVER claim to be an
expert on kids because I'm most certainly not--which is why I'm so
incredibly unqualified to hide kid boxes myself. But La Chola seems
to know what she's talking about, and until she proves herself wrong,
I'll give her the benefit of a doubt. =) She's got some interesting
ideas as the very least.

Carpe diem!

-- Ryan

--- Dog Scouts Troop wrote:
> Barefoot Lucy said: "You could work with the kid,
> walking with him or her while someone else counts
> his pace and you count your own, then divide the
> kids' paces by your own to arrive at a pace factor.
> You should then be able to pace off anywhere and
> multiply your own pace count by your factor to
> figure out how many paces you should note in your
> clues. You should probably also note in your clue
> the age and height of the test kid. "
>
> Sorry, sounds way too much like MATH - EEWWW!

*****Would you believe I'm an accountant by trade? I
get a little carried away with numbers sometimes -
sorry! Frankly, I liked the string idea a whole lot
too! Very cool!

Lucy

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> From: "rscarpen"
> Subject: Re: Boxes for kids
> Listen up, everyone! I'm deferring all future kid box questions and
> comments to La Chola, because she seems to know more about them than
> I do. I'm just throwing out ideas, but I'd NEVER claim to be an
> expert on kids because I'm most certainly not--which is why I'm so
> incredibly unqualified to hide kid boxes myself. But La Chola seems
> to know what she's talking about, and until she proves herself wrong,
> I'll give her the benefit of a doubt. =) She's got some interesting
> ideas as the very least.

LOL--I'd be happy to loan you a couple for as long as it takes you to master
the mysteries of their tiny minds!

(Thanks for bringing up the topic, by the way. I've gotten a lot of good
ideas, too.)

> *****Would you believe I'm an accountant by trade? I
> get a little carried away with numbers sometimes

You want to see carried away with numbers? Check out my Paul Revere
Walking Tour letterbox! ;o)
http://www.geocities.com/rscarpen/Lb/US/MA/PaulRevere

Has anyone managed to find that box yet? I know a couple of people
had figured out Part I, but it takes a really determined individual
to unlock the whole clue!

-- Ryan